In this episode of The Purposeful Banker, Dallas Wells talks with Ben Cash from the Q2 product team about the expanding role of technology in treasury and cash management.
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Transcript
Dallas Wells
Welcome to The Purposeful Banker, the leading commercial banking podcast, brought to you by Q2, where we discuss the big topics on the minds of today's best bankers. I'm Dallas Wells. Welcome to the show.
Today, I'll be talking with Ben Cash. Ben is a senior product manager here at Q2. This is Ben's first time on The Purposeful Banker, but he's been with us at Q2 for three years, focused primarily on treasury and cash management. Before joining Q2, he spent three years as a data scientist for JPMorgan Chase. He's also a former business owner himself. He and his brother partnered in a retail and coffee business for about five years. Did I get that right, Ben?
Ben Cash
You did, yeah. Thanks for having me.
Dallas Wells
All right. Yeah, you bet. Ben brings a wealth of experience here to this from all angles. And Ben's one of my favorite product people to talk to here at Q2 for that reason. So first time as a guest on this show, but I think you'll be in for a treat on this. So we'll talk a little bit about what Ben's been working on for the last several years, which is treasury management stuff. We'll also tiptoe into a little bit of the small business angle. We're doing that again because, as I said, Ben's a former small business owner himself. And it's also part of his new role at Q2 that he's taken on somewhat recently, of doing some product management for our small business portion of our digital banking platform. So we've got lots of things to talk through with Ben.
But Ben, let's start with this treasury management and cash management services stuff that you've spent quite a bit of time on over the last few years. And this is something that we decided to really lean into as you started. It's one of those rare things that you really start from scratch in the product world. Why don't you go back to maybe that origin point of where we started this. And always the decision criteria is, is this meaningful for our financial institution customers? Is this going to move the needle for them? Talk about why we thought early on that it mattered and that this was worth making a pretty sizable investment in.
Ben Cash
Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me, Dallas. I feel like I can check it off the bucket list now of being on The Purposeful Banker podcast.
Dallas Wells
There you go. You've made it.
Ben Cash
So I finally made it with the likes of you and Alex Habet. So also, just to add one thing to your intro, it's a great intro, I really appreciate it, is just to address the irony in the room with the fact that I used to work at a bank, now I work on the technology side and serve banks. And then we're talking about treasury cash management; it's so fitting and ironic with my last name being Cash that we talk about this. So I felt like my career was deterministic
Dallas Wells
Yeah. I mean, no offense, but it's actually the only reason we hired you back in the day. It was like, "His name's Ben Cash. We got to get him on board."
Ben Cash
That's right, yeah. I think that, and that's what qualified for me being one of your favorite product people. So I'll take it.
Dallas Wells
There you go.
Ben Cash
So hopefully I can live up to the hype. But yeah, so let's talk about that, the origin story of treasury management and where we started in that industry, because I think that's a great place to start, because if we think about just ... We're going to use this word digital transformation a lot of times today. And I think if we think about the banking industry in general, I think they're experiencing a lot of digital transformation and what's behind that as they go from analog to digital; what does that feel like? And I think a lot of those themes that banks are experiencing when it comes to digital transformation manifested a lot in treasury management. And so you and I have had a lot of conversations. And so you're a former banker, and so I know how you used to do banking. You used to use legal pads, calculators, spreadsheets. That was your go-to tooling for banking back in the days. Well, however long that was ago for many banks ... if it was a decade, decades ago-
Dallas Wells
Yeah. Careful with how long you're describing that aspect.
Ben Cash
I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a lot has changed. I work with financial institutions all across the country, spent time with hundreds of banks and bankers. And that's still the tools that they use today, is spreadsheets, yellow legal pads and calculators. So you can imagine as we think of the state of commercial banking and all the changes that's happened, if we look years ago as rates fluctuated and they continue to fluctuate, there was a lot of compression on banks when it came to lending. They just weren't making as much money on lending, because of where the rates were. So the commercial bankers, they turned to their treasury partners. And it was like, "OK, it's your turn. It's time to step up. And how can we bring in some additional income to achieve profitability for the bank?" But they were using yellow legal pads, spreadsheets, and calculators.
So as times changed, treasury didn't always change with it, but they definitely became more of the forefront and in the spotlight for a lot of banks to achieve profitability. And so if you think about just the life of a treasury officer or a banker in general within the world of treasury management, if we define that really quickly, really what that means is payments. It's a way that banks support their customers to help them make payments, receive payments, and manage their cash flow.
And so in the world of treasury management, when banks can offer hundreds to thousands of different services and all sorts of tools to support their customers, and so when they go into these Frankenstein spreadsheets to try to build a proposal for their customer about what types of services or price it out or pull data together to understand just what's the profitability of a customer, it's quite cumbersome. It's painful actually. Sometimes when they go to hit save, the whole spreadsheet crashes, and then they're back to square one.
So that's the world that a treasury officer was living in. And since treasury income was more important to the bank more than ever in this present day, and they wanted to get the full relationship of that customer, well, not only was it important for those bankers to have the right tools, and they were working in data tools, it was a goal of the bank to actually win more treasury business. So both those worlds were colliding at once. And that's why we decided to invest in pursuing treasury management.
Dallas Wells
Yeah. So to get maybe a little more specific about the angle of it we're talking about here, the banks and credit unions have offered these kinds of services for a long time. So I think you described it well, right? It's basically payables, receivables, managing cash flow. Those services are fairly straightforward for a consumer account. When you get into the business world, they get wildly complex pretty fast, especially as the number of payment rails, all the channels, the managing of that cash flow has gotten more complicated. And so banks and credit unions were offering the services. And a lot of them offered the services in order to get balances, right?
Ben Cash
Yeah.
Dallas Wells
If we want the big corporate checking accounts, we've got to be able to do these things. And so the pricing and structuring and management of that whole side of it was basically, like, "Hopefully we can just recoup some of the costs." That was kind of the analysis that went into it. And I think it's evolved now to where there's a real marketplace for this. There's real competition around the pricing. But it can be charged for, right? This is real value-added service.
So I think the path you were going down there is like this has now become ... rather than a, "We’ve got to offer these services to get balance," all of a sudden this has become a separate line item. So we make money from loans. We want the deposit balances to be able to loan out those funds. And now we can generate some fee income from these complex movements of money on behalf of these business customers. So what's that lift look like? How much does it matter to generate some of that fee income? And what's the real impact to customer-by-customer returns there?
Ben Cash
Yeah, no, that's a great question. You said it well. It was very credit-led for a long time, as they were trying to win the customer. It makes a lot of sense, because if you think about it from the customer point of view, they're starting a business, they own a business, they're growing a business, they're a large corporate business, whatever it looks like. And so they go to the bank for a variety of reasons, but initially they hire the bank out to deploy capital so they can manage, grow, start their business. And then they look to the bank to store all their cash and deposits and stuff like that. And then as that business grows, how do they manage that business effectively, whether it's a small business or a large corporate business, whatever that looks like? And so they need those treasury management services, those payables receivables, as you put it, to help manage that business.
And so a lot of banks just didn't have it. And so they would just give away those services for free because it was hard for them to stand behind the quality of the services they offered, but they wanted to get the full relationship. Larger banks may have had those services and they were discounting them, giving away for free in some ways, but maybe there's some services that they could stand behind; they weren't discounting them.
But the reason I talk about that story from the customer point of view ... because from the bank point of view, what that represents is this word we call primacy, is how do you become the primary banking relationship for that customer? How do you give them all their loans, all their deposits, and how do you continue to participate in their growth as a business and support them with treasury services? And so now banks are chasing primacy. That's the end state, that's the end goal, is become the primary bank, because it leads to stickiness. It leads to relationship depth, it leads to all sorts of things.
And so, one of the neat things ... You asked about, what's that actual lift? Every bank knows this. Primacy is the goal. How do you win the entire wallet? The neat thing at Q2, we have one of the world's largest commercial banking data sets. And so we can actually quantify what that lift would feel like for banks if they chase primacy. And so what we did is we observed that data and we looked at a cohort of relationships. And we looked at the commercial relationships that started off as just credit only. They just had loans. And then over time they added deposits and those treasury management services, those cash management services.
There was an 8 plus percent lift in return on equity as compared to the customers that just remain credit. And that made a lot of sense, because for banks that participated and won that operating account where they managed that cash and held that cash and had their loan business, they were in the money flow with that customer. They were participating, they were able to deploy capital to them, they were able to help them grow their business. And so as they were helping that business grow, the bank was also participating in that profitable growth by winning primacy and seeing that lift on equity.
Dallas Wells
Yeah. You spoke to it in terms of return on equity there. And I think that's the magic of this part of the business. If you just think of it in straight P&L terms, I think maybe you miss some of the magic of it, right? So the constraint in the banking world is, how much capital do I have to allocate to this business to generate those returns? So if you're doing a non-owner-occupied, speculative commercial real estate project, you're going to have to allocate a big chunk of capital to that. And then you're going to generate your, whatever, 370 net interest margins on that. And that return over a big chunk of capital is not that exciting. But it takes just a tiny little baby sliver of capital to support these treasury services. And so it's super accretive to those return on equity numbers. And I think that's the magic that the biggest financial institutions figured out a long time ago, that they would wield their balance sheet as a weapon.
And I remember being in lots of rooms as we were trying to compete on some of these commercial loans that we were chasing. And it was like, "I have no idea why they're pricing it this way, how they're making any money on this deal." And it was all just like bludgeoning us with their balance sheet so that they could win that operating account and generate the fee income without having to put additional capital into it. And as a smaller institution, the situations in particular I'm thinking of, we didn't have the tooling to compete there.
So let's talk about that a little bit. You called it primacy, those are operating accounts. And we talked about how there's some sophistication in the technology there. And that used to be the realm of the big four, and maybe down a few notches from there. But a typical community or regional bank or credit union didn't have a chance of competing for those once you crossed a certain threshold. How has that changed over the last ... call it decade?
Ben Cash
Yeah, that's a great point, because you talk about you come from that smaller institution. I came from a large institution where we had the budget to chase these things, and we had the staff and the resources and do all that. And so that's that digital transformation piece. That's where technology comes into play, and that's where we can take technology and digitize the banking experience and augment the bank and the bankers and everyone around it to interact with that digital technology to keep costs low and create a better experience.
You know this analogy really well, but the founder of PrecisionLender, Carl, he used to always say this thing, is, "We're in the business of building Ironman suits, not Terminators." And what I love about that metaphor and that analogy is the spirit of that is the power of what technology does. It's not replacing people, it's not taking things away. It's just taking all the things that we've gotten more sophisticated at as a society and trying to empower the folks at the bank, whether it's the banker or the bank themselves or even the account holders themselves, to experience that digital transformation.
And so if we think about it in terms of primacy, there's a couple ways that can manifest itself. You have the front-end experience for the account holder, the customer at the bank. What does it feel like for them to have an experience, an online digital experience that is built for primacy? Can it be a place where they can understand the totality of their business, of all their accounts, of how they're making payments and how they're managing their cash and what sort of loans they need to chase? And then on the other side, how do you empower the bank and augment the bank in such a way to use technology to actually chase primacy? So you've got to create the digital experience for the account holder. And then for the bank, you need to augment them and make them more effective to chase these sort of primary relationships.
And that can look a variety of ways. We talked about some of those spreadsheets. How do you get them out of spreadsheets into more digital applications where they can see across the entire relationship and understand the benefit of what if you get their loans, their deposits, and their treasury services? So how do you make pricing and profitability and sales negotiation more effective? And also, it's the data. Banks have all this data. So how do you organize it and help them organize it in such a way to make use of it and be effective with it?
And then in other ways is maybe it's integration. One of the things is there's all these disparate systems at the bank: Mary's using this system in building A and Tom's using this other system in building C, and they're not talking to one another. And how do you get all those systems to work together without them having to walk across the street to talk to someone, and stuff like that? How do you make that more effective and bring that data together? And we see that in a lot of ways of just the technology and the shift in banks that participate in that, make it more effective across the board, not only for their customers to experience the benefit of that technology, but the bank employees themselves are more effective when they actually utilize the technology. And it leads to entire win over primacy for the bank.
Dallas Wells
Yeah. So you laid out there, I think, this nice symbiotic relationship between the humans that are building that face-to-face relationship, and then the technology riding shotgun to help with all the heavy lifting there. Let me walk you through another part of it, though, and just tell me if you've ever heard something like this before as you've worked on this treasury pricing angle. We go through this deep analysis and all this work to structure this treasury relationship. And we win this account and we're very excited about it, and we can see some returns in there. And then just month-by-month, the fees just get waived. So whoever actually owns that relationship, typically whoever's leading the credit side of that relationship, they're just waiving all the fees. How are you seeing financial institutions get to that core element? After all the investments, all the work we've put into it, there's still that almost accountability issue of, how do we actually make this stuff stick?
Ben Cash
Yeah, that's a great question. That's actually one of the most important questions, because you can create all the best technology in the world, and you can experience cultural challenges that come with some of these institutions. And to take it further, I have friends that do a lot of adventure hiking. I don't do it myself. Maybe I should get into it. I have too many kids to get into it right now. But I've seen TV shows. But what you always see is they go buy the best technology, get them ready for their trip, the GPS and all the right ways to clean the water when they're going into the wild. I don't know what it looks like, but I could guess. But what they can never prepare for is, what is the terrain and what is the weather going to feel like?
And that can feel a lot like what it feels like when you put technology in the middle of a bank, is there's just a lot of cultural shift that has to happen. And you touched on it, and as we think about treasury and think about the culture of treasury and just what's happened for a long time, what's interesting about the commercial treasury management world is there's a lot of folks in there that are very tenured, that have been in that position for a long time. You have Will, who's been the wire person for the last 30 years. And then you have Ann, who knows everything about ACH and she's done it forever. And then Ted, the treasury officer, has been the keeper of the spreadsheet for a decade.
And so you have all these people who have just been there forever. And so how do you get them to change their behavior to stop discounting and waiving? How do you get them to stop ... Inertia is sometimes the enemy, it’s like sometimes they just want to do what they've always done for a long time. And so there's those cultural challenges, as when you drop technology in there, how do you actually get them to stop waiving some of those fees? How do you empower them to stop doing those old habits? Because just dropping technology isn't enough.
Dallas Wells
Yeah, I think that change management element is the 800-pound gorilla in the room for all of this, bringing new technology to especially these very heavy-relationship parts of the business, which is all things commercial, but especially as you get to this higher tier of these more sophisticated treasury services-driven relationships. Changing the people there is really hard. Now, I think that's also where we're starting to see some of our customers really differentiate themselves. The technology has become this great leveler of the playing field. And really, they've gotten to the point where now a smaller institution might have to pick and choose where they deploy their budget a little more carefully than a JPMorgan Chase, for example. But you can find affordable tools that will level the playing field for whatever your particular niche or strategy is. But that doesn't mean you can consume that technology and actually get the full benefit out of it.
And so those that have figured out that motion and how to do that over and over again are really starting to put some distance between themselves and the competitors. And maybe I've just been doing this long enough, but it feels like you can feel it when you walk in the room, right? It takes me about 30 seconds to know, is this a group that gets it or is this a group that we're going to have to get in the trenches with them and fight through it with them to make this work? You see some of the same thing there?
Ben Cash
I have, yeah. I can give you some examples. I mean, there's definitely been banks that I've walked into where the example of Will and wires, and Ann and ACH and-
Dallas Wells
By the way, I love that you speak in personas. That's the sign of a true product guy.
Ben Cash
Yeah. But those are analogies for actual people, I mean, people who've been there forever. And they're afraid, right? They've done the same thing. They've taken the manual process and pushed the paper across the factory floor. And that's what they've done for 30 years. So now technology's going to disrupt what they do. And that's where you go back to the Ironman suit over the Terminator. You're not making them less so; you're making them more so by making them more effective.
And getting them to understand that and buy into it and actually getting them to participate of, OK, this technology actually makes us better, me better, and us as an institution better, the banks that do that and the actual bankers that participate in that way are much more effective. And not only you see the cultural shift, you feel it, and one of the outcomes that you feel is ... In the commercial pricing space, this idea of primacy; great in theory, hard in practice. Because for a long time you speak to the whole, "We waive a lot of things, waive treasury services," largely because if you think about commercial relationship on the banking side, it's mostly relationship management-driven. And since it's been credit-led for a long time, it's, "We're going to win the loan business regardless and give whatever we want away for free."
Well, now they're having to collaborate for the first time in decades with one another. I gave that example building A and building C; that's exactly what's going on. They've never even stepped in the same building together, and now they have to price and work together on the same relationship. And this is where we've seen technology play a really interesting role. It's almost like this third object for them, where they don't necessarily have to interact with one another, but since they interact with the same system, then they're pricing toward the same thing. They both feel like they're participating in different ways.
The other thing that we've seen is institutions that do it well is ... I've always heard this Charlie Munger quote of, "If you can understand the incentive, you can predict the outcome." And I think that's where it comes down to as well, is banks or financial institutions have to recognize if a relationship manager is incentivized in this way and a treasury officer is incentivized in this way and they're not incentivized on the relationship holistically and actually achieve primacy, then whatever technology you throw at them, it's going to be really hard to change that behavior.
And so the institutions where we've seen the cultural shift is they started putting the customer at the center of their pricing and profitability strategy. But what was interesting is they used tools like treasury pricing or PrecisionLender tools at Q2, or whatever it looks like, to help craft that conversation, because changing incentive structures is quite hard anywhere you are. And so if you can actually use something like a tool, a technology to showcase that to leadership, then you can start to drive change. And then when they actually start to adopt and use the tool, well, their incentive structure has changed. And now they're pricing toward that relationship, and you're seeing that 8-plus percent lift and the return on equity that we talked about in the data. So that's some of the examples that I've seen that cultural shift of banks doing it well and what they had to battle to get there.
Dallas Wells
Yeah, good stuff. Let's shift gears just a little bit and talk about the new area that you're jumping into. I say new; obviously, there's going to be a ton of overlap here. So Ben is moving to, as I said at the beginning here, to focus on the small business portion of our digital banking platform. And so small business, or SMBs, or business banking, those segments have some different names and different definitions across different institutions, but I think everybody gets what we're talking about here.
And it's been a little bit of no man's land for a lot of financial institutions. It's like everybody, we instinctually know that it's important. And it's this giant cohort that we feel that we have to serve well to feel like we're actually serving our communities well. But doing so profitably is really, really hard. And so talk a little bit about, maybe just generally, that space and what you feel like some of both the challenges and the opportunities are there.
Ben Cash
Yeah, so Dallas, you mentioned in my intro, I come from that world, not only ... when I was at JPMorgan Chase, I spent a lot of time in the data understanding, just how do these businesses operate in small business? And then you pair it with just my experience as a small business participant and owner and working in that world. I think if we think about it from the perspective of a small business owner, however they got there ... maybe they had a personal account at the bank and then they realized they were good at, whatever, making cookies. And they started selling it at the farmer's market, and then they're selling it to friends and family. They put it on Facebook. Their business grew.
So then someone was like, "Well, you got to open up a business banking account." And they're like, "OK." And so they went to the bank, they opened up a business bank account. And then someone wanted to pay them in different ways, like, "I have this credit card. Do you have something I can tap on? Or can I send you an ACH?" The business owner's like, "I don't know what an ACH is, but yeah, let's figure this out."
And so I tell that story because, from a small business owner, they're very retail-minded. Their banking experience is very much from a retail persona, but they operate and need services that most commercial corporate clients are given by the bank. But they don't understand what those are. So if you ask a small business owner, "Do you need ACH, bill pay, wires," They're going to look at you like, "I don't know. I just need to make electronic payments. Do you have that?"
And so I think coming from that world, I understand what that feels like, and what's just the simple common language that small business owners think through? And then how do you translate that to a banking experience, and what does that feel like? Because that's always the game that banks are going through, is, where does it live? Does it live in retail? Does it live in commercial? Do we redefine what a small business is? Is it 1 to 10 million? Is it less than 1 million? Is it a micro business? It's all these different attributes of, where does it fit?
And at the end of the day, for the small business owner, their world, it's not small for them. It's their livelihood. It's like, "I've just started a business and I want to grow it and build it." And so we've got to figure out ways to kind of bridge this together as a financial industry and then create tools that actually serve that person quite well. So I'm excited to bring that personal antidote into that space.
Dallas Wells
Yeah. One other interesting angle to this that I figured out as we've been redesigning some portions of the digital banking platform here, we've got on the retail side of it. And it's a single platform here at Q2, so it's the same underlying guts of the platform, to use a very technical term. But on the retail side, we're doing lots of user research. And we're modernizing it to give it ... and it's very mobile-first. And a lot of our customers, 80-plus percent of the traffic is from mobile devices. And so their experience of their bank or credit union is the app that they downloaded from the app store.
And so there's that side of it, and that's where, number-wise, the biggest number of our users are. But then we've got, at the other extreme, we have some very large corporate users as well. So they have finance and accounting staff, maybe a staff of 20. And they're operating inside our digital banking platform all day, every day. So they know it better than our support and engineering staff do, at least from a slightly different angle. They're inside of it using it all day, every day.
And so I think that point you made was a really good one. You've got a small business owner who's needing to use some of that same functionality that we've had to build in a very complex, sophisticated way for that large corporate customer. They need some of the same basic outcomes. But you've got a business owner who would really rather not spend all day, every day inside of the digital banking application. They need to check it twice a week, make sure that payroll is going to clear, "And did that big check land there that was supposed to for that invoice I sent out," right?
Ben Cash
Yeah.
Dallas Wells
They're treating it a little more from a ... it's a little bit more of a consumer type behavior pattern, but using some of the tools, and frankly, showing the risk profile of some of those larger corporate customers. I think that's the challenge that we all have to figure out, is how do we walk that fine line between the level of sophistication that's needed versus the ease of use to not add too much friction to that business owner? So same thing, and I know that this is early days for you, but are you seeing that there's some institutions that do that well and others that don't? And maybe what are some of those common elements of those that are doing well in this segment?
Ben Cash
Yeah, there's definitely institutions that do it well. There's institutions that understand ... maybe they're a community bank, and that's how they started. They started on the backs of small business owners who helped them build that and create that experience for them.
There's not only institutions that are doing well, but there's fintechs that do it well. So this is an important thing, if we think about there's a reason why small business owners spend a lot of their time with Square or with QuickBooks or with whatever it is. It's because those fintechs have done a really good job of ... they're not just the merchant, they're not just the payment. They're starting to become pseudo this bank for that small business owner. And they have access to this data, and it's this experience. They understand it, help them grow their business and stuff like that.
But where those fintechs can lack is at the end of the day, as the small business owner grows, they need that relationship depth. So they go back to their bank and they said, "Hey, I need another loan," or, "I need a CD," whatever it is. "I need some way to deploy capital and get better rates and stuff like that." So they go back to their community institution. And the institutions that actually provide that experience, similar to what that fintech was doing for that small business, they're doing really well because it mimics that behavior, it's very retail-like. But they support them with the payment stuff that they need to send a wire to whatever vendor they're paying, or to pay ACH through those rails.
The other angle, too, is they're creating a unique experience for that customer, but they're also, if we think about it from the angle ... and you asked this question of the profitability point of view. The angle of the bank, everyone recognizes small business is important. And they're important because they bring a lot of deposits and there's growth opportunities for them. And so from the profitability piece, what banks are asking themselves, or financial institutions, credit unions and banks are asking themselves is, "How do we manage this portfolio that we recognize to be beneficial, but we don't always have the staff to do it?"
Because those large corporate commercial clients who require that sophistication and they have a corporate treasurer who can navigate all the strange names that we give payments these days, they can pay for that. Also, they're a large portion of the bank's portfolio, as we think about that. So how do we create profitable growth and scale across this continuum so the bank or the financial institution can manage that portfolio well and give almost the self-service type piece that works so well in retail, give it to small business owners, but make sure they capture that growth? Because maybe one day that small business owner ... If we go back to my experience in the coffee shop; it started as one coffee shop, two coffee shops, three coffee shops. Well, now that's trending toward that large commercial client. And so they started as a small business. And how can the bank participate in that continuum, but support it in a way that's profitable for the bank and beneficial for the small business owner as well?
Dallas Wells
Yeah. So if I were to say that back to you, and I think I have a similar observation, which is the institutions that do it well are very intentional about treating small businesses as a separate, distinct group, and shaping an experience and some services just for them. It's not like, "Well, it's just like every other commercial account we have, or it's just like every other retail account we have." You can't throw them in one of those two other buckets. It is very much a distinct, separate group that needs its own treatment. And it can't be lumped together or an afterthought if you're going to do it well.
Ben Cash
Yeah, and not only that, just to add onto that, it's good for the economy. I read a statistic. It's the small business owners that are digitally inclined and have these digital experiences, they create jobs five times faster than some of these larger commercial companies. And so the bank gets to participate in that growth and that technology experience. And to your point, as they focus on it, they're experiencing that growth on behalf of that customer as well.
Dallas Wells
Yeah, I like it, some positivity. So let's wrap it there on a good note. It's not always easy to do when you've got a couple former bankers. It's easy to get into the doom and gloom of it. So we'll end on the upside.
Ben Cash
That's true.
Dallas Wells
Ben, good stuff. Thanks for joining us. You passed your first test, so we'll have you back again soon.
Ben Cash
I appreciate it.
Dallas Wells
Appreciate you coming on. All right.
Ben Cash
Yeah, always a pleasure. Thank you.
Dallas Wells
All right, thanks, Ben. So that's it for this week's episode of The Purposeful Banker. If you want to catch more episodes, please subscribe to the show wherever you like to listen to podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and iHeartRadio. Let us know what you think in the comments. You can learn more about the company behind the content by visiting Q2.com. Until next time, this is Dallas Wells. You've been listening to The Purposeful Banker.
